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Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
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Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:43 pm
Posts: 1695
Location: AH SHIT FUCK AUGH
Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
I'm not kidding you, i've actually found something on it. Basically, it looks like this, so far:

1/(mass*velocity) = Sharpness required to pierce one particle with 1 structural integrity. Should pierce two grass particles.

(1/(mass*velocity))*x = Sharpness required to pierce one particle with X structural integrity. (Try 25 for sand)

((1/(mass*velocity))*x)*y = Sharpness required to pierce Y particles with X structural integrity.

I've tested it, and i'm pretty much 100% certain that the first and second ones work. Third i'm not entirely sure about, but it seems to be accurate so far.

Thoughts/further research?

Fri May 15, 2009 9:51 pm

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:12 pm
Posts: 1525
Location: In between your sister's legs, showing her how to use a... PS3 controller!
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Care to explain it for the less educated readers?

Fri May 15, 2009 9:54 pm

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:50 am
Posts: 1512
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Hey, this is my kinda post. Good job shook. Though honestly it'd be nice if we could just take a look at some of the basic physics formulas on our own somehow.

@zombie: uh... not sure how much simpler his explanation can get.

Fri May 15, 2009 9:58 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:54 pm
Posts: 1357
Location: USA
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Honestly, never thought of that, and never would have probably. Thats cool, Shook.

Fri May 15, 2009 10:00 pm

Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:43 pm
Posts: 1695
Location: AH SHIT FUCK AUGH
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
@FlammableZombie: Well, i can try. Here goes:

If you take the bullets mass and velocity, and multiply them with each other (mass*velocity), you get the impulse of the bullet. Divide 1 by the impulse of the bullet, and you have the Sharpness value needed to knock loose ONE particle with StructuralIntegrity set to 1. To pierce one particle with StructuralIntegrity 25, just multiply that Sharpness value with 25, and if the StructuralIntegrity is 50, multiply by 50 and so on. To pierce more than one particle, say 6, multiply the current Sharpness value with 6, and it should pierce 6 particles with StructuralIntegrity 25, 50 or whatever you initially multiplied with.

Sharpness for dummies who have looked at the Materials.ini file. :U

@Darlos: Yeah, would be nice. And seriously, this is by far one of the clunkiest variables if you ask me. Though, when i think of it, it actually kind of makes sense. A little.

Fri May 15, 2009 10:04 pm

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:44 pm
Posts: 1916
Location: Flint Hills
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Nice finds, Shook.

So I'm assuming wounding works on a more complex variant of this?
Is one pixel of penetration on terrain like an entry wound on a still target, in what's required to cause it?

Funny how community members will do research and testing before Data would just say it.

Fri May 15, 2009 10:16 pm

Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 10:27 pm
Posts: 514
Location: Eating ice cream at Graeter's
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Excellent.

This will be useful for getting premium realistic effects for weapons.

Fri May 15, 2009 10:17 pm

Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:43 pm
Posts: 1695
Location: AH SHIT FUCK AUGH
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Azukki wrote:
So I'm assuming wounding works on a more complex variant of this?
Is one pixel of penetration on terrain like an entry wound on a still target, in what's required to cause it?

I'd assume that, yes. I can't say for sure, though, as i haven't tested it. One obviously has to take the targets velocity into account as well, but other than that, i think it's pretty similiar. One pixel penetration is probably enough to cause an entry wound, piercing all the pixels in a line(?) would be an exit wound. These are all theories, though.

Azukki wrote:
Funny how community members will do research and testing before Data would just say it.

Let's face it, we'll be riding in superconductive trains and visiting Tut Ankh Amon every other week before Data tells us without poking him excessively. =P
But really, if i hadn't thought of the whole ^-1 business at that point of time, i probably wouldn't have done anything. It just quickly strafed my mind, that it seemed like there might have been a ^-1 connection, somehow. Being the curious soul i am, i just had to test it.

@AlphaCommando: I certainly hope so.

Fri May 15, 2009 10:30 pm
Data Realms Elite

Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 8:27 pm
Posts: 4521
Location: Constant motion
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Shook wrote:
((1/(mass*velocity))*x)*y = Sharpness required to pierce Y particles with X structural integrity.

Just a point I discovered... I am inclined to say that y should in fact be y^2 [y squared], as the velocity of the bullet decreases with the number of particles pierced, but this is only a suggestion. Further testing is required.

Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:44 pm

Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 16
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Your math mentions velocity. In my coding I have multiple items with a velocity such as the rounds fire velocity or an AEmitters max and min velocity. So I'm just clarifying which line of code that has to do with velocity is used. I'm assuming its the fire velocity

e.g.
PresetName = .50 Cal Round
ParticleCount = 1
Particle = AEmitter
CopyOf = .50 Cal Particle
Shell = AEmitter
CopyOf = Shell Smoking
FireVelocity = 1
ShellVelocity = 10
Separation = 0

But I don't know.

I was also unsure of the items mass that is used. Sure its not the gun or the clip but what about an emitter? Or is the mass used in this math taken specifically from the item that includes sharpness

e.g.
PresetName = .50 caliber bullet
Mass = .045
Sharpness = ?

Sorry I'm an artist not a coder and I'm new to sprites so...

Would a .50 caliber bullet (weighs .045kg) that goes about 10 pixels deep into mega metal be ((1/(.045*1))*180)*10=40000 Sharpness. That seems a bit much

or should I try to figure the fire velocity of a Barrett sniper rifle using the Muzzle Velocity of 2800 fps (853 mps) and some how translate that into pixels per second instead of feet or miles? if so what is a pixel in CC? An inch? Six inches? It seems a fire velocity this high would kill the actor holding the gun but I don't know. I shall have to test it.

Further more how dose your math mesh with the statement in the Materials.ini "StructuralIntegrity, Impulse force needed to knock terrain pixels loose (kg * m/s) " What kilograms are they referring to? What is m for if not Mass in kg and what is s? Sharpness, Structural Integrity or something else?

Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:59 pm
REAL AMERICAN HERO

Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:25 pm
Posts: 5655
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Giantbean, lemme try to answer some of those (pretty good) questions:

FireVelocity is the only relevant velocity in the case of, directly, a single bullet fired by a gun. In, say, a grenade, it's a different variable, but the speed is still in the same units (that is, semi-arbitrary meters per second).

When I say semi-arbitrary, I mean this: Meters are defined by Cortex Command as 20 pixels (look in settings.ini), and a second a sim second, which varies based on the actual game clock and how fast you're capable of running the game.

Any velocity value above 500 m/s is null; objects at 500 or greater m/s will simply not exist. At 499 m/s, objects take on some wacky properties. So, in the case of, for example, the M107 .50 Caliber sniper rifle, assigned the bullet its "real" speed is pointless. Which calls into question the value of assigning its real mass, and really makes you wonder just what the hell to assign for sharpness, an entirely arbitrary variable.

Frankly, there's no good answer. Most of the work in balancing something in CC is based on trial and error and some fore knowledge. For instance, a good velocity for a very high power sniper rifle in CC is somewhere between 150 and 200 "meters per second". Obviously that's nowhere near the actual velocity, but in terms of CC gameplay, velocities in that range behave the way you would expect them to.

In response to your last question: kg * m / s is kilograms times meters per second; that is, 1 KG * 1 M / 1S = 1 Newton of force. So the force needed to knock a pixel of terrain loose is measured in newtons, and is done based purely on whether a bullet's velocity and mass are enough to remove it.

Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:56 am

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:44 pm
Posts: 1916
Location: Flint Hills
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Really, it's way easier to tweak until you get the result you want.

Basically, adjust your velocity until you get the flight speed you want, adjust the GlobalAccScalar [gravity multiplier] until you get the bullet drop you want, adjust the mass to get the recoil and 'knockback' (terminal momentum transfer) you want, and then adjust sharpness to get the penetration you want.

You can also increase the particle count to cause extra wounding, and then lessen the mass of the particles accordingly, to still get the same momentum. One thing with multiple particles, though, is that their penetration is accumulative when hitting terrain, but not when hitting other things, such as enemy foreheads.

One thing to keep in mind, though, if you want to do things mathematically, is that CC ballistic velocities are retarded, like Grif mentioned, so if you want a realistic momentum, you can raise the Mass accordingly, with justification.
P=MV, M=P/V, and V=P/M
So if a 50BMG bullet would realistically weigh 0.045kg, and fly at 908m/s, that would realistically result in 41 kg m/s of momentum.
But in CC, the Velocity would need to be lowered. 5.56 NATO also flies at about the same speed, and the Ronin M16 shoots at 100m/s.
So if you want the same momentum, 41 kg m/s, then divide that by the new speed, 100 m/s, to get the momentum-compensated mass, 0.41 KG.

This same general idea can be used to get realistic bullet drop with unrealistic velocities, but that's a little more complicated to do mathematically. But all I'm saying is that lessening the GlobalAccScalar could also be justified.

Sometimes the particle is an emitter that then emits the actual projectile/s, in those cases, adjust the emission velocity, not the fire velocity.

Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:12 am

Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 16
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Thank you Griff and Azukki! What great answers. So just to clarify the damage (wounding) your bullet has on an enemy actor is based more on the particle count then the mass and sharpness but you have to adjust the mass and sharpness for terrain penetration? Is there a material set for characters or is that a variable of there health?

I find it strange that I can make a bullet that will go an inch or two into concrete (on a 21 inch screen) but not kill a dummy with a head shot. Dose that mean my particle count is to low or is it my mass needs to be higher?

Thanks

Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:54 am

Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:44 pm
Posts: 1916
Location: Flint Hills
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
Well, the damage is defined in the wound.
When you shoot someone in CC, it usually causes an entry wound, and that causes the damage.
If the particle had enough penetration to fully penetrate through the target, then it also causes an exit wound.
Wounds have five times as much damage when they're inflicted on the head of AHumans.

So, as unrealistic as it is, a barb poking downward into your shoulder would do the same damage in cc as a spear skewering through your torso, but not quite poking through the skin on the other side. And the wound diameter doesn't matter either. It's all about the entry and exit wounds, the penetration depth doesn't matter, unless it's enough to exit.

If you fire 4 particles that wouldn't fully penetrate, like the Dummy Rail Pistol, you would cause 4 entry wounds, and 4 times as much damage as the entry wound damage. This would also gib anything with a GibWoundLimit of 4. EG; it would cause 60 damage (3*5*4[3 damage, with headshot bonus, times four]) if you headshot Dafred, plus bleeding.

If you fire 3 particles that would fully penetrate, like the Dummy Nailgun, you would cause 3 entry wounds and 3 exit wounds. It would inflict three times the entry wound damage, and three times the exit would damage. That would be 120 damage if you headshot Dafred, (3*5*3 + 5*5*3) leaving him with negative 20 health, causing an instant kill.

Also, when the gibwound limit of something is reached, it gibs, which does some extra damage, because when limbs come off, a high-damage wound is inflicted. For example, you can shoot a robot in the head a couple times, and it seems to not do much damage, but then we you fire a couple more times, his head gibs, and he dies.

Also, sometimes the terminal momentum transfer is enough to knock off a limb or the head, by overwhelming the JointStrength, (usually the gibimpluselimit is also overwhelmed, causing it to also gib) so that's another thing to consider. In B22, the Ronin Peacemaker would gib heads through blunt momentum, instantly killing people with headshots, even though it only would have only caused one entry wound and maybe an exit wound through just penetration.

So, overall, yes, your mass and/or particle count need to be raised to get instakill headshots. And your sharpness should be lowered, because it sounds like you've got some serious terrain rape going on there. Also, the more easily it cuts through the head, less momentum is transferred to the head, so less sharpness can actually make it more powerful, since it will be more likely to gib the head through blunt momentum transfer.

Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:03 am

Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 16
Re: Hay guise i'm finding sense in Sharpness.
This is extremely useful information. I'm surprised I couldn't find this anywhere else on the forum. Thank you so much!

Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:57 am
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